In This Story
The war in Ukraine continues to rage, and with no end in sight, the people there continue to suffer. David Ramadan and guest co-host Prof. Ellen Laipson sit down with reporter and news producer Mary McAuliffe, who shares her experiences living in war-torn Ukraine. She explains what daily life looks like in the country while living under the threat of Russian invasion, the resilience of its people, and the high costs of people's displacement. Mary also talks about her interactions with US military troops deployed in Ukraine, as well as the impact of US policies on the state of the ongoing conflict.
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We turn our attention to Ukraine, a nation still fighting for survival nearly three years into a brutal, grinding war. Joining me as co-host for this episode is my colleague, Professor Ellen Laipson, Director of the International Security Program and the Center for Security Policy Studies here at the Schar School. She joined GMU after a distinguished 25-year career in government and as President of the Stimson Center. Her last post in the US government was Vice Chair of the National Intelligence Council. She also served on the State Department Policy Planning Staff, National Security Council staff, and the Congressional Research Service.
Our guest is Mary McAuliffe, a freelance journalist and video producer covering the conflict zone. She has embedded with the Ukrainian Military units and frontline medics to document the realities of war. Specializing in visual storytelling, Mary focuses on the human impact of conflict through in-depth reporting, interviews, and cinematography. Prior to her work in Ukraine, she worked as a Jerusalem-based correspondent for international news channels. Together, we'll explore what daily life looks like in Ukraine, the suffering, the resilience, and the stories that rarely make it beyond the battlefield headlines.
Mary and Ellen, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Life In Ukraine Before And During Wartime
Mary, thank you for the courage and for sharing these insights from the front lines of Ukraine. Ellen, thank you for helping us understand the broader policy context of this conflict. This episode reminds me that behind every geopolitical headline are real people fighting, surviving, and hoping for peace. I was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. I have lived through the Civil War, but it's been a few years. Mary, take us there. What does this life look like? What does it feel like in Ukraine for everyday Ukrainians?
Some people also forget that Ukraine is a very large country. When they think about Ukraine, they think that the war is everywhere. Where I live, it's very close to the frontline. We can get into that in a minute. You can also go to Kyiv. You can go to Tel Aviv and some other big cities in Ukraine. There are beautiful villages and the Carpathian Mountains in the West that feel completely untouched by this war whatsoever, until you start to talk to the people who may tell you the stories of people they know who are fighting on the frontlines.
It does feel like any other European city. There are bars open, restaurants open, and people going about their daily lives. Also, in Kyiv and some of these cities, you may have air raid sirens, but for the most part, many people, almost four years into this war, are trying their best to continue on with their lives because they don't have any choice. They can't live in a bunker. It has become quite routine.
You will see people out on the streets sitting, having coffee, and sitting at cafes, even if air raid sirens are going off. It's the chances that you have to take rather than if you're in Kyiv, for example, living somewhere knowing there are air raid sirens, going to a bunker, or maybe taking the odds to say, “Things are going to be okay,” or, “I'm not going to live most of my life in fear.” You have this atmosphere with most Ukrainians, where life is going on.
Even where I live, which is about twenty kilometers from the frontline, we still have cafes. You still have families going out. You still have people who are riding their bikes and kids who are playing in the playground. We have a playground right outside the apartment we live in. You'll hear very large strikes nearby. The kids will stop for a second, and they go right back to the routine. For most Americans, this would be completely unfathomable, but they're so used to it at this point. They are doing their best to try and keep on keeping on.
You're bringing out old memories for me. You've been back and forth. What struck you the most when you returned to the country time after time? What changed? What have you seen over the last few years as far from the start of the war until where we are now?
I first went in 2023. I was there right on the one-year anniversary of the war. It was a completely different Ukraine. I went to Kyiv, and it felt like a ghost town. There were a few restaurants open, but I would be the only person sitting at a cafe. I'd be the only person sitting at a restaurant. Maybe one other person will come in. It was a different atmosphere. When I came back, which would've been January 2025, it was completely different. There were a lot of people who were out like normal. It felt like a completely different city and a completely different country.
At this point in the war, because it had been over a year and a half since I had last been there, they had gotten fed up with the situation and had accepted the reality that this war was going to happen and continue for a long time. Many people who had left and maybe gone to Poland or other parts of the world had returned during that time period. The number of Ukrainians had certainly returned. There have been a lot of people returning to various cities.
When it comes to the front, the East, and the Donbas area, it's also a completely different situation. The war changed significantly. We used to live ten kilometers from Donetsk City. We lived well within Russian artillery range, which was quite close. For the most part, we lived there, and things were okay. We were driving back and forth. If we needed to go to supermarkets in other cities, Pokrovsk was the city we went to, which is practically at the center of most headlines.
The area in which you can live has shrunk significantly. It’s not just because the Donbas territory has been significantly encroached on by the Russian forces, but also, you can't live in areas where we used to be able to live and where the army used to be able to operate, live, and have their bases. There were drones, but there weren't FPV drones like they have now. It's a complete minefield. This line of operations has been completely pushed back to where it's safe for them to live. Everything has felt much more condensed into a smaller area. There are three cities remaining in Donetsk, which is also an insane number every time I think about it.
I remember in my childhood in Beirut, we ran away for hours at some points, for days at different times, and for months at different times. There was one time that we ran away to Alexandria in Egypt. We lived there for three years before we returned. I relate to people going away for 1 day, 1month, 3 months, 1 year, or 2 years, and then coming back. I relate to this migration back and forth, which has an economic cost that is beyond belief, but it also has an emotional cost. Can you talk a little bit about those?
A lot of my experience is going to focus on the Eastern Donbas region because that's where I've lived. I pass through these cities, but I don’t spend significant time there. Those who are in the West, or even Kyiv, they're able to return to their homes. Maybe they went to Poland. Maybe they went abroad. They're able to come back.
It's hard in our area because these people who have to leave our area know very well that they're not coming back to this area because of the way the Russians have been able to advance very quickly in this area. It is a different mentality than if you lived in other parts of Ukraine than if you live in one of these areas that Putin has declared belong to Ukraine. For them, they're leaving what they can.
In the last house I lived in, there were still many belongings of the family and things that were left behind, like a wedding dress hanging in the closet. Emotionally, that feels a lot harder. I'm not Ukrainian, so it's not my house. I only lived there for six months. I grow attached to things easily, so I can only imagine what it's like to live there. I felt very emotional because I knew that when I left for the last time, I would not be setting foot in this house again. There's a possibility that no Ukrainian steps foot in this house if Russia gets its way that it wants and continues to maintain control of this territory. Once they occupy it, it becomes occupied. There's no going back to that area.
How American Policies Are Impacting The War
Let's take this to a policy discussion. The microphone is yours.
Thanks, David. Thanks, Mary. We're sitting in a policy school. People tend to think about what the US is doing and how our policies are received. Since you've worked closely, being embedded with Ukrainian military units, maybe to start with a simple question, what's the mood among soldiers? Sometimes, we hear stories of difficulty recruiting. Give us a snapshot if you can.
Every time Zelensky comes out into the West, there are conversations about, “If you'd only give me the equipment I need, we can turn this in our favor,” but other Military analysts would say there hasn't been a lot of movement in the line. I realize people in the capital city may want to characterize the status of the war differently. When you're close to the front line, do people feel fatalistic? Do they think that this is never-ending, or do they think that there might be some chance of ending this one way or the other?
A lot of them don't hold a lot of hope for negotiations. I'm in Ukraine. When I come back to the States, people want to talk about, “What's happening with Zelensky and Trump? What are they discussing in the White House? What Military aid packages? What negotiations are happening?” These kinds of discussions are so far from the minds of the people that I live with because they don't hold a lot of hope for negotiations. They are very aware of what negotiation Putin wants.
The unit I live with has fought and lived in Donbas in the Donetsk region for the past couple of years. Putin continues to say that the only negotiated settlement they would have would include that Russia would control this area. What that means practically for them is that everything they have fought, lived, and suffered through for the past couple of years, in the end, Russia will win because they'll get this territory.
It's hard for them to listen to these negotiations and hear politicians talk about what this means for them on the ground. Maybe to Americans or people abroad, this is a line drawn in the sand. For them, this is a line that they have defended, fought, died, and suffered for so many years. It's hard to overestimate how much of a toll that has taken on them. It's not an optimistic atmosphere.
It is hard to overestimate how much of a toll the war has taken on Ukrainians. They do not have an optimistic atmosphere.
I will never forget the moment when Trump and Zelensky had that big blowout in the White House back in March or February 2025. I will never forget watching the soldiers that I live with watching that on their tiny little tablet and seeing the looks on their faces. I don't even know how I can put it into words because I also want to keep it apolitical, but it was so distressing for them to see because they had high hopes that something could change. They did believe in this rhetoric.
That was a moment where it shifted for a lot of them, where they stopped giving any hope that something could change on the ground. They felt very disrespected by the American president and, by de facto, the American people by how this was allowed to happen. How their leader was treated like this in such a meeting, so highly televised for them, was quite embarrassing for them as well as embarrassing for me as an American.
Soldiers In The War: Where Are They Coming From
This attachment to territory is real. It's universal. Many other cultures have some of the same issues. Think of the people in Gaza. I'm curious. Do you know whether the soldiers that you're working with or that you're living close by come from all over Ukraine, or do they tend to be recruited from the area itself? I'm wondering about that attachment to those particular segments. It's roughly 20% of the total Ukrainian territory. I wonder whether there's a larger principle of sovereignty, integrity, and the borders of the country, but maybe some soldiers are more attached to those particular communities than others. Are people deployed from different parts of the country?
This could also open a whole other can of worms. We have one new soldier. He was a conscript. He was rounded up by the government and the recruitment office, and he joined the unit. All of them have been fighting since the beginning days of the war. None of them is from Donetsk. None of them is from Luhansk. None of them is from any of these Eastern territories. They all come from the West, Dnipro, or Kyiv. They all come from areas that are very far detached from it.
There is also a lot of animosity among them. This is why I say this might open a can of worms. They don't necessarily like being in the Donbas. They have a lot of issues with the people there. The people treat them far differently than people do in other parts of the region. They have very different perspectives on the Military. They have different ways they treat the Military there.
It's widely known that there are also a lot of Russian sympathizers in the Donbas. They have been fighting in this area. They've lived in this area. They have a lot of hostility between them and the people because a lot of the people who they live defending don't want them there. They see them as the problem. They're the reason why there is war in the area. They call them the waiting people. They’re people who believe that the Russian government is going to come in, and everything will be better for them.
The Donbas people themselves are many who have issues with the Ukrainian government. They feel very much that they have been neglected for years. This is an area that's very far from the Ukrainian government. They have issues with resources and infrastructure. In general, there's a big disconnect between the people who live in Donbas and the people who live in the rest of Ukraine. None of them are emotionally connected to the people of the Donbas, but they still see it as part of Ukraine. Since it is part of their country as a whole, even if many of the people don't want them there defending them, they still see it as their patriotic mission to remain there.
That's an important distinction. You think of the morale of the soldiers. While they may not be personally attached or culturally affiliated with the people who live here, they can still grasp the larger concept of the country of Ukraine. There's some larger purpose to it. I can imagine that for some of them, they're stuck in these World War I-style trenches. They may say, “This isn't land that I feel so attached to.” That's interesting.
The Current Relationship Between Ukraine And Europe
I don't know if they avoid talking about politics, but in terms of outside actors, do you feel that Europe is the more reliable partner for them? Do they ever make observations about, “We can trust the Europeans. The Americans are less predictable and less reliable these days.” I know that we have this proclivity to think that everything America does is so important, but in reality, we're not the only actor.
We've been restrained about no boots on the ground. This was true for Biden and for Trump that we do not want to be a combatant. We will help Ukraine, but the level of support varies. Any impressions? Do they feel more connected to Europe? Is the US a faraway and complicated player? Any impressions on their views on that?
They very much respect the Europeans. They know Europe has done a lot for them. They're very grateful for it. We'll constantly see European vehicles and heavy machines out on the streets, and they're grateful for it. Despite everything that happens in Washington, beyond the political side of it, they do respect the Americans. Every time they get anything that's American-made, it does hold a certain weight within them.
Maybe they heightened this because I'm an American, so they're saying it to me, but in the unit that I work with, they have these American machines. It's called a MaxxPro. It's like a souped-up pickup truck. It's a very heavy machine. That was a huge morale booster for them on the ground because it did change a lot of their strategy and their defense. It allowed them to go to areas that had become too dangerous to go in because they couldn't take tanks into these areas.
While they might have issues and they might have been saddened and upset by everything that happens in the White House, they do still hold so much regard for anything that's American Military-made. We'll get random things from volunteers, or they collect, and it will say something American. They’re like, “This is American.” There is a level of respect there.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily one versus the other. They're grateful to everybody who's helped them. That's something they tell me constantly. I will try and ask them, “How do you feel about this? You saw they're not going to give them these missiles. How do you feel?” They're very diplomatic. They say, “We're so grateful for everything that we have received,” because they truly are.
Ukrainians are very diplomatic. They are grateful for every bit of help they receive from everyone.
Age Range Of The Soldiers Serving In Ukraine
Back to the recruitment issue, and then I'll pass the baton back to David. We do hear about recruitment difficulties, or that at least some young Ukrainians, young professionals, and people who had no Military experience managed to get out of the country to avoid the war or for their own professional requirements. There's some talk of whether you see people who are past what would be considered maximum efficient fighting age. Do you see 40-year-olds or 50-year-olds in the unit in which you're affiliated?
In the unit that I live in, out of maybe 10 people, there are 3 under the age of 35. I'm one of them. It was told to me once by a soldier that all of the young, physically fit, capable commanders were burned out very early in the war. Within the first year of the war, a lot of them will lament that there was a lack of tactics or a lack of not knowing what was going on. There were a lot of capable men who were wasted during this period of the initial days of the chaos and confusion, the initial months of the invasion. At this point, sadly, everybody who's in our unit is probably 40-plus with a few exceptions.
That’s interesting. David, do you want to pick up the baton?
Real-Life Stories Of Soldiers At The Frontlines
Let's keep running. Let's stick to that human side of the story. Soldiers, medics, and civilians, you spend time with all of them. What stories stand out? What captures both the pain and the resilience? Can you share a couple?
Every day, I feel like I see resilience. Sometimes, I look at them and I don’t know how they keep going. Many years in, it feels like every day, there's a new problem. Every day, they lose more men or they lose more equipment. The first day that I lived with this unit, which was back in May 2023, I was working with a medic. She had taken me on. We ended up living with a group of soldiers who took us in. There were ten people staying in one house. We were sharing a bunk with maybe six other people. One of them was a soldier of this unit.
We had no idea what was going on. We had no idea how things worked there. I was very new. This was my first time spending significant time with soldiers. One of the soldiers got up in the middle of the night at 3:00 AM. We woke up the next morning thinking something catastrophic had happened to get called out of bed in the middle of the night.
We later found out weeks later that every single night, he'd been waking up in the dead of night so they could take advantage of what they call gray light. It's before dawn, where the sun is beginning to set, but you don't have sunlight out. Every single day, he was digging in mud, looking for the bodies of two of the men who had died under his command.
To us, when we first heard this, we thought, “He's such a dedicated commander. He's taking it personally.” To be digging in this area, it's also on the zero line. He's putting his life in danger for the bodies of soldiers, which I didn't understand for a long time. Why would he sacrifice himself for men who had already fallen and put his own life in danger?
You find out later that if you die, the family gets a certain amount of compensation, but they need the actual body in order to get the compensation. This commander was taking it upon himself, risking his life every single day. He was digging through human remains in mud and horrible situations under Russian artillery fire within range of Russian weapons so that the families of two men who fell under his command could get compensation.
I think about it a lot. That speaks a lot to the resilience of the Ukrainians and how deeply they care about their men, their country, and people they've never met, like the families of the men. They'll go out of their way to do everything they can for them. There are so many stories like that of people whom I've met since then.
Ukrainians deeply care about their people and country. They go out of their way to do everything they can for people they have never met.
The Struggles Of People Away From The Frontlines
That’s interesting. Certainly, those are things that we don't think of in our everyday lives. How about civilians a little bit off the front lines? How’s the human spirit? What are you seeing there? People are going to school every day. Universities are probably running as well. How do they balance that?
It depends on where you live. In our area, it's all distance learning. Kids aren't in school anymore. If they're a bit further outside the area, they will be going to schools. Even in the last village that we lived in, the last month there, we were under the FEV range. There were constant drone attacks there. One was on our street, very near to us.
If we had an impact, I went out with my med kit and my camera to see what the situation was. You see all the neighbors who are there. You had a group of eight neighbors trying to corral the cat and get them back inside. Everybody immediately comes out to help each other, and then everybody goes back to their daily life as if nothing had happened. A couple of hours later, I went on my normal walk around the block at sunset, and people were out there as normal. Families were talking to each other. All the grandmothers were on their regular routine. Kids were riding their bikes.
It was never seen in America. It felt uniquely Ukrainian to me. I've also lived in Israel, where you have similar, but it's something about the Ukrainians. They will not let anything keep them down, whether that's civilians or the Military. They will try to do everything possible to pretend this isn't happening, or acknowledge it's happening, but then say, “How can we continue moving on?”
For the civilians, I have so much respect for them. Even in the area where we live, I don't understand why there are civilians who are still living there with their families and their children. For so many of them, they say, “This is my home. I've lived here forever. We’re not going to let somebody come in and force me from it.” Whether or not that's a smart idea or whether it's something I would do, probably not, but you do have to admire the courage and determination to say, “I will not be forced from my home.”
Why Hoping For Peace Is A Real Challenge For Ukrainians
I do. I'm recalling that when I was a kid growing up in Beirut, and had to share similar stories of what you're reflecting on. We live day-to-day. It was a matter of, “Can we get bread for tomorrow or not?” It was a daily thing. We were like, “Is there going to be milk or not?” The milk was never fresh. The first time I ever had fresh milk was when I was nineteen, immigrated to the United States. It was always powdered milk because there was no fresh milk in Beirut during the war.
Finding the day-to-day, sleeping overnight in front of a bakery so we can get bread in the morning, taking my dad's car as a teenager without a license, pulling up that car, and waiting in line all night long so we can get two gallons of rationed gas, I've lived all of that. I do remember distinctly that I didn't let that stop me from dreaming about the future and thinking about the future. How are Ukrainians thinking about the future? I know they are. I can guarantee it without being there. How are they thinking, and what are they thinking about for the future?
I talk a lot about the guys and the soldiers that I live with. I've been noticing that they talk a lot about the past. We'll sit around at the end of the day. Even if somebody is out working, we'll wait until 10:30, and we will sit and have dinner together. Most of the time, they talk about the situation on the ground. They talk about their past. They talk about the jobs they used to have, the kids, and what they used to do. I have noticed a shocking lack of the absence of what the future will hold.
They'll maybe talk about a job they used to have working as a tractor repairman. I say, “When the war is over, will you go back to that?” They'll say something like, “I don't know what will be in the future.” There's this inability for a lot of them to think about the future. In Lebanon, you had these short bouts of conflict, and then things would end, unless you lived in Gaza in the West Bank, where things went on forever. You had these shortened things going on.
For them, they have lived constantly for almost four years in this state of living away from their families, away from their wives, and away from their children. For them, it's hard to conceptualize what is going to happen after the war, not just in terms of actual on the ground what their job will be, but also going back and imagining living with their families again. It's always a very sensitive subject.
Every time, I've tried to ask, “What do you think will happen in the future?” Even if it's as simple as, “What if there's a ceasefire in the Donbas today? What's going to happen then?” Even months or two from now, it's hard for them to think like that. I don't know if it's also a distinctly Ukrainian idea, where it's something they think a little bit differently when it comes to planning.
They all grew up in the Soviet era, so I do think that has a big impact on a lot of the ways that they think when it comes to day-to-day, enduring, planning for the future, and planning for what they’re going to have. I don't hear them talk a lot about the future, and it is something that I do think about often. I stopped trying to ask because I understood it's a subject for them that brings too much pain. They want an end to this war, where they can think of a future where the war isn't going on, but they've been in it for so long, day in and day out, that it's hard for them to conceptualize what that means.
The war brings too much pain to Ukrainians. It is hard for them to conceptualize a future where the war is not going on.
I can see that. It's not easy. There were two types of people during the war when I was in Lebanon. There are those who thought of the war as what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You survive and you say, “I can survive anything.” I subscribe to that mentality. There are a few that the war destroyed them. Even if it didn't kill them or hurt them physically, the war destroyed their mentality, destroyed their feelings, and destroyed their future. They gave in and gave up. I do hope that there'll be more Ukrainians who subscribe to the first one, that what doesn't kill you will make you stronger. Ellen, close us out with a little discussion about journalism.
Mary’s Experiences And Insights On Covering Ukraine
I'm interested, Mary, if you could tell us about the journalist projects that you have by staying with this one unit. Is your goal to create a documentary of this particular unit? Do you sometimes want to go and compare this unit to other units? Was it hard to get the Ukrainian Military's permission to see them up close, the way you are?
Can you tell us a little bit about the environment, why you chose this environment, or what the journalistic objective is? We've seen journalists embed with American Military units, but I presume it's quite unusual or interesting to be embedded in a foreign Military's day-to-day life. I would love to hear more about that if you can tell us.
I don't think there are other journalists who have taken the approach I have. If so, I would love to meet them because I would have a lot of questions. To give some background, I worked in Tel Aviv in Israel. I was based in Jerusalem for a long time. We moved back to the States. At the time, I had covered the war significantly from afar. I was a diplomatic correspondent. I was constantly talking about what Israel's role would be in this war at the time with Prime Minister Bennett and Zelensky. There were a lot of discussions about how Israel could help, if they would help, and if they would give the Iron Dome.
My day in and day out for months at a time was dealing with the Ukrainian war, but I was very far removed from the war itself. My channel didn't want to send me on the ground. It was too expensive, too dangerous, and what have you. When I left the channel, I decided that I wanted to go there because I had spent so much time talking about it. I understand that seeing things from afar and seeing pictures, there's only a small aspect of the war I could understand.
I went knowing nobody. Through luck, I ended up meeting this American medic, traveling along with somebody who was delivering aid to her. I thought, “That’s an amazing story? This American firebrand is living with a bunch of Ukrainian soldiers.” I originally wanted to do a project about American volunteers in Ukraine because I know there are also a lot of American fighters who've joined foreign legions and have joined Military units. The idea of Americans joining a foreign war effort was interesting to me because everybody has different motives. How could they sacrifice so much for a country that isn't theirs and they have no connection to at the end of the day?
I started working with her. Since I was living with her, we ended up with this unit. I became very attached to the idea of this unit. They come from all different places in Ukraine. They all have different backgrounds. They speak different languages. They speak different dialects. They've all come to trust together because of this war. I was enamored by watching them interact on a daily basis with the problems they face.
There was so much that we in America didn't know and could not know, but by the fact that I was there and happened to be in the right place at the right time, they grew to trust me. They would interact a bit differently than if a journalist came in. Most journalists who will come in will come in for a day, or they’ll come in for a couple of hours in these areas, and then they'll leave, or they'll come with a big security convoy, armored vehicles, and things like this. That doesn't breed truly getting to know a situation.
I was doing live news for my channel, so I wasn't filming them day in and day out. Over time, they grew to trust me. I am accredited with the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Most of the work I do there is simply by the fact that they know me and trust me that I'm able to film with them. I'm in a very unique position, but it's also a sensitive position because they let me film with them, but only under the condition that I can't publish anything. I don't publish anything about the unit, the name of my unit, where we live, or anything like that until they're no longer there. The documentary will be something that will happen a couple of years from now.
That’s interesting. Do you see journalists from other parts of the world? Does China send journalists? Do you see Indian journalists? How much attention is the Ukraine war getting? It has probably dropped off by now. Since it has been stable and a little bit frustrating for so long, I wonder if international news media are less interested in spending money to get journalists there.
They definitely are. That's one of the main reasons why I came back. I spent five months on my first stint there, and then I came back to rest and recuperate for a month before I planned to continue my project. The war in Israel happened, and my channel asked me to come back. I remember standing on the hill in Sderot, which is right on the Israel-Gaza border. You're looking over the hills, and it was packed with journalists from every single nation speaking every single language.
I couldn't help notice the discrepancy between the war in Israel and the war in Ukraine, the amount of coverage it got, and the amount of attention it got. Even the way that you could tell the story and the way you were able to interact with the soldiers on the ground there, it was very frustrating for me as a journalist. I had a lot of struggles with that because I wanted my job. I enjoy seeing the human side of pieces. That was something I always liked about being corresponding. You get to talk to people. You get to meet people whom you would've never met before.
The atmosphere at the time was a very sterile environment. You stood on a hill, got statements from the IDF, and got reports from Palestinian media. That was the extent of what you could do. We couldn't go inside Gaza. That, for me, was frustrating, coming from living on the front lines with a unit and being much exposed and aware of everything that was going on.
You don't see many Ukrainians in the Donbas. It is a big area, so it's possible they're here or there, but most of them will come in for a couple of hours at a time, and then they'll go back to Kyiv. If you go to Kyiv, you can walk around the central square. Most of the journalists will be in this one square outside the Cathedral. You'll recognize the background. For the most part, it's nothing compared to the coverage of Israel. Even in the beginning days of the war, I don't think there was anywhere near the same amount of coverage, in my opinion.
Do you feel like you can't finish your documentary until the war is over? When will you know that you've got a story to tell? You've accepted the condition that you won't release until they're gone. Do you feel like it’s open-ended for you?
It's a question my family asks often because they always ask for an end date. It’s hard to know.
To object here for a second, by family, I'm sure the readers have noticed the last name. Mary McAuliffe is the daughter of our former Governor and colleague, the distinguished Professor of Practice at the Schar School, Governor McAuliffe. I know for a fact that Governor and Mrs. McCullough would love to have her home for good.
It's hard for me to answer the question. I also feel very much attached. My story is about this specific brigade, which is an infantry brigade, and they've been fighting in the Donbas. I've chronicled them living in one house, having to move areas, and what their new areas of operation are. I don't see a scenario outside the Donbas where it makes sense in terms of my movie. That's how I see it. I don't know why. I'm sure the war is going to continue past this area, but for me, their story is very much about the defense of Donbas.
There's also so much to tell in that story. They’ve operated in so many different areas. Bakhmut, Andriivka, and every single major operation that has happened in the Donbas, their brigade has been a part of that. If that brigade is no longer in the Donbas, I'm not sure where the story goes from there. For my main end date, let's say if the war in Donbas ends tomorrow, that could be the end of my filming there, but I don't think that will happen, so I'm not holding my breath.
We wish you safety and success in your project. It sounds like a very intense experience.
Thank you.
Episode Wrap-Up And Closing Words
Mary, thank you so much again for your courage. Thank you for sharing these stories from the frontlines. Ellen, thank you again for putting this into a context of policy for us. Mary, we would love to have you back when it's over. Hopefully, you can share with us some of the footage at that point. If there's anything that we can help with from the Schar School while you are at the frontline, please do not hesitate to reach out to us.
I hope this episode will get to our readers and our students the message that behind every conflict, there are people who are fighting, people who are surviving, and people who are hoping for peace. Even though people like Mary are not sharing their story now, there is a story. Hopefully, that story will be shared in the future. You can read this and all of our episodes on Schar.GMU.edu/podcast or wherever you get your shows. Until next time, stay engaged and stay informed. Thank you.
Important Links
About Ellen Laipson
Ellen Laipson is the Director of the International Security Program at the Schar School of Policy and Government at George Mason University. She joined GMU after a distinguished 25-year career in government and as President of the Stimson Center (2002-2015).
Her last post in the US government was Vice Chair of the National Intelligence Council (1997-2002). She also served on the State Department’s Policy Planning Staff, the National Security Council staff, and at the Congressional Research Service. Currently she serves on a number of academic and non-government boards related to international security and diplomacy, including the ISD Board of Advisors.
She joined the boards of the Center for Climate and Security in 2022 and the WWF’s Oceans Futures in 2023. She previously served on the International Council of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, the board of The Asia Foundation, and the advisory board of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.
She was a member of the CIA External Advisory Panel (2006-2009), President Obama’s Intelligence Advisory Board (2009-2013) and the Secretary of State’s Foreign Affairs Policy Board (2011-2014). She holds an M.A. from the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, and an A.B. from Cornell University.
About Mary McAuliffe
Mary McAuliffe is a freelance journalist and video producer covering conflict zones. She has embedded with Ukrainian military units and frontline medics to document the realities of war.
Specializing in visual storytelling, she focuses on the human impact of conflict through in-depth reporting, interviews, and cinematography. Prior to her work in Ukraine, she worked as a Jerusalem-based correspondent for an international news channel.